Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/24 15:07Okay, this is going to be a long one so I apoligize ahead of time. First off, thanks to everyone who has sent their advice and concerns, I apoligize if I haven't been able to single you out and thankyou, but know that we appreciate every note we get! Now back to Ms. Rinn! Obviously if you have been reading these, you know Rinn had surgery and since has lost a considerable amount of weight. We're having problems getting her to eat enough to put on weight and she also seems to throwup, at least once a day. When she was healthy she weighed around 400 grams, now she probably weighs around 270 grams. When the vets removed the masses inside of her they said there was a possibility that the cancer has spread into her bone marrow (or other organs). They have kept a sample of the masses that we can send out and find out more about the cancer, but because Rinn is so weak we have put this on hold because she wouldn't be strong enough for any of the treatments. Rick is an out of work carpenter (as if any carpenters have work these days) and I am a stay at home mom/very part-time dance instructor, so needless to say we are not rich. However, Ms. Rinn is as much a part of our family as our own children, so when she got sick money was not an option. After having spent over 3,000 dollars out of our savings (which was not much to begin with), we are hesitant to spend more money for no reason. What I am trying to get across is we have not sent the sample because it seems there's no point at this time, but we will gladly spend as much as we can if it would help her. Also, just to note, money is not why we have not taken her back to the vet, we honestly believe the stress of the trip would kill her! Obviously, if she starts gaining weight and gets stronger, we will take her back as soon as we feel the trip won't do more damage than good. Sorry I got a little off track there! Now really back to Ms. Rinn! As of last night I started keeping a journal of everything that goes in (and out) of Rinn and the time it happens. Up until now, we have tried so many different things, that on top of the stress and lack of sleep, we were starting to forget what and when things happen. Also there seems to be no rhyme or reason of why she is throwing up so we thought we might see some sort of pattern if we have it written down. However, we are coming to the conclusion that the cancer has spread or is so deep within her that she just has good feedings and bad. Yesterday we tried mixing one tablespoon of puppy formula with about 1/8 teaspoon of Nutri-Stat (basically the same thing as Ferretvite, but because she threw that up once, we thought we'd try this). Sometime in the early afternoon (hadn't started the journal yet) she kept down around 1/2 tablespoon(guessing on the quantity but I think I'm pretty close) of the mixture. Oh I forgot to add that around 40 minutes before we fed her the mixture, we gave her about .02ml of Peptobismol (advice on the proper quantity of pepto would be appreciated). Anyways, around 3 to 4 hours later we gave her another dose of Pepto and 20 minutes later tried feeding her more of the mixture. She took literally a couple units and threw up! We thought maybe we hadn't given her enough Pepto or didn't wait long enough in between so we gave her another .02ml of Pepto. It was after this that we decided to start keeping the journal. We have thought that perhaps she is throwing up because I am over feeding her (I'm sure her stomach has shrunk to nothing) so I am not forcing her to take anything. It seems that in the past whenever I would push her to eat ( and by force I don't mean shoving it down her throat) she would throw up. We are so overwhelmed and confused, so I apoligize for the length and detail but I am putting this out here in case anyone has ideas. Oh and what is strange is that when she throws up it is literally right after she eats or drinks something (like it comes back up as soon as it hits her stomach) and she can puke after just taking 1 or 2 units.(Strange, huh?) If you are still with us, thankyou and here is what Ms. Rinn's night and part of today looks like.
SUNDAY NIGHT INTO MONDAY: 9:30P.M. gave Ms.Rinn .02ml Pepto (was planning on feeding her 20 minutes later but she didn't want anything!)
12:20A.M. Rinn ate about 10-15 units of vanilla Boost and she also ate about 1ml of her food(Mazuri Insectivore Diet) mixed with water and fed through a syringe.(RUNNING OUT OF ROOM, CONTINUE NEXT POST)
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vicioushippie
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/24 15:483:10A.M. Rinn drank some water from the bowl when I held it to her face. She also ate around 3-4ml of her Mazuri food/water mixture. On top of that she also took about 15 units of vanilla Boost.
6:45A.M. Gave Ms. Rinn .04ml Pepto
7:30A.M. Rinn drank through a syringe about 1/4 teaspoon of the puppy formula/ Nutri-Stat mixture
10:30A.M. Rinn drank another 1/4 teaspoon of the puppy formula mixture.
11:00A.M. Rinn was still up and shnarfling around so I offered her some more of the puppy formula. She accepted it and after taking only about 2 units she threw up. (Maybe because I forgot to give more Pepto?)
It is now around 3:00 and Rinn hasn't been interested in anything I've offered so I am just letting her sleep right now. We picked up a bunch of different stuff at the pet store the other day. We haven't tried everything because we don't want to offer too many new things at once, some of things we know nothing about or are still trying to figure out dosage. Here is a list of some of what we got, if anyone knows anything about any of the products, your input is appreciated! 1.Bene-Bac ( What we have heard about this one is mixed. Some people like it , others say just use yogurt. Which by the way, we have offered Rinn a tiny amount of plain greek yogurt mixed with honey and she liked it and kept it down) 2.Vital Nutrition Liquid Meal (know nothing about this one but it says it is for sick and recovering pets, concentrated nutrition, builds stamina and easy to digest. Also suggested uses for senoir pets, post surgical, lack of appetite and recovery from illness. Sounds like just what we need, but are hesitant to use because we don't know anyone who has tried it on cats or dogs let alone hedgies. 3.Nutri-Stat 4.Ferretvite (basically same thing as above) We also have a bunch of foods (yogurt, cottage cheese, banannas, applesauce etc.) to try, however, we know about offering new foods and are even more hesitant with a sick hedgie. We also just don't know what to offer and when anymore. We don't want to over do it and at the same time we want to put weight on her and get her healthier. Basically WE ARE OVERWHELMED! Well I think that covers it for about now. Oh I am alos waiting to hear from our vet, she is supposed to be calling today or tomorrow. We just want to thank you all again! We always knew hedgie lovers were cool/good people, but you all have gone above and beyond! Thanks, Beth and Rick and always Ms. Rinn!!!!
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CThogs
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/24 17:13They have kept a sample of the masses that we can send out and find out more about the cancer, but because Rinn is so weak we have put this on hold because she wouldn't be strong enough for any of the treatments.
We did the exact same thing. If the treatment is the same either way, I would not worry too much about having the samples done right now. If she gets stronger and you want to send the samples out then, you still have that option later.
We don't want to over do it and at the same time we want to put weight on her and get her healthier. Basically WE ARE OVERWHELMED!
I know how you feel-it is very hard. Talk with your vet cause they know her condition the best. We tried a lot of what you have there and basically went with what she would eat on her own because she was still interested in food and did not have the vomiting issues you are having. In our case it was a couple of types of cat food-purina kitten chow and something else, and lots of mealworms. We also gave her benebac every 3 days when she was on ainntibiotics cause she would not eat yogurt. It worked for us, but every hedgehog is different especially when they are sick.
And it was also very up and down-for every day she had put on weight, there was another where she didn't. So try not to get too discouraged.
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omelette
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/24 18:19i'm sorry to hear about Ms. Rinn. reading your post it does seem like she was able to keep food down at least for a while. i.e. the vanilla boost and her food water mixture. it seems like only until you gave her the puppy formula did she throw up. so maybe try the mixture that she didn't throw up? i'm sorry that i can't offer any real advice. but please know that we will keep you in our thoughts, hearts, and prayers. Lisa and OmeletteLisa My Heart Belongs to: Teddy, Sugar, Sapphie, Fudge, Archie, Chuckie - The Yorkies Wendy (Siamese Mix), Echo (Tabby) - Cats Omelette - Hedgehog Basil - Guinea Pig
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Andrea
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/24 18:38My thoughts and prayers are with you all. I dont have any experience with the specific products you mentioned (this is all totally new to me) and I am new to the hedgie world in general but I guess giving your hedgie the foods that seemed to be tolerated and kept down i.e. the yogurt, the vanilla drink etc and avoid the ones that made your hedgie vomit. And also giving fluids to prevent dehydration. And not overstuffing since your hedgie's stomach has shrunk a lot.
Keep us posted.
Andrea
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vicioushippie
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/24 19:40Ann, Thanks for the quick reply! How much Benebac did you give your hedgie (how much did she weigh too)? Rinn's taken yogurt but I've given her such small amounts that I'm wondering if I'd be better with the Benebac. Your advice is really appreciated !! I wonder if the Benebac would help with the vomiting... Anyways, thanks again, we will keep you and everyone posted! Ms. Rinn,Beth and Rick
Post edited by: vicioushippie, at: 2008/03/24 20:04
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vicioushippie
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/24 19:55Lisa and Omelette, Your thoughts and prayers are truly appreciated! We will keep you posted! Thankyou! Beth, Rick and The ONE and ONLY Ms. Rinn Pinnrose Puff-n-Stuff
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vicioushippie
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/24 20:00Andrea, If this post comes up twice,I apoligize, my computer is old and sometimes has a mind of it's own. Anyways, we just wanted to let you know how much we appreciate yours and everyone's good wishes. Truly if it were not for people, like you, taking the time to write over the past few days, Rick and I would have lost our minds by now. Thankyou, Beth, Rick and of course Ms. Rinn
Post edited by: vicioushippie, at: 2008/03/24 20:02
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CThogs
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/25 06:42Ann, Thanks for the quick reply! How much Benebac did you give your hedgie (how much did she weigh too)? Rinn's taken yogurt but I've given her such small amounts that I'm wondering if I'd be better with the Benebac. Benebac or the live cultures in yogurt replace the good bacteria in the digestive tract that antibiotics kill. I would say give one or the other, but both aren't necessary. Our girl was less than 400 grams to start and her weight went up and down depending on how she was feeling. I think it was around 1/6 of the little tube.Ann Connecticut Hedgehogs
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vicioushippie
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/25 06:53Ann, Thanks again for the quick reply. Ms. Rinn ate 1ml of yogurt last night, so I think we will wait on the Benebac for today. (Do you think that is enough yogurt?) But tomorrow or the next day we are going to try the benebac. It seems like Rinn is keeping more down the last couple of days (I think I may have been pushing too much food on her), no doubt thanks to everyone's advice and kind words. Have a good day! Beth and Rick
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Julie Pierce
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/25 09:49We are pulling for you. Feeding with syringe is tricky because if they are resisting it or dont swallow it just right they can choke/throw it up. I syringed Lilly when she was really going down hill fast and couldnt drink from a bowl anymore because she was so weak. When she started getting better, I put the puppy formula and ferretvite in a bowl and left her to sip on it herself.
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vicioushippie
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/25 11:37Julie, Thanks again for taking the time to write! I can get Rinn to drink her honey water out of her bowl on occasion, so I am going to try the formula in abowl tonight, thanks for the advice! Ms. Rinn kept everything down last night (YEAH!) We tried mixing a very small amount of the nutristat in her food mixture and she kept it down. We haven't offered any more formula since she threw it up, but like I said we are going to try again today/tonight. Have a good day and we'll keep you all posted! Beth and Rick
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LORI611
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/25 13:51Beth andRick, Kudos to both of you!! It sounds as if your vigilance may be paying off, sounds like Miss. Rinn is keeping a bit of food down!! (yay!) What wonderful hedgeparents you are!! Oh and Beth, I think it's times like this that you are very lucky to be a stay at home Mom! I'm thinking about your schedule and I'm not sure how I would be able to handle it!! (although I know it doesn't help the old bank account!!) Well best of luck to you and keep up the good work!! LoriLORI, SOUTHINGTON, CT Mom of: Chloe(dog), Mr.Toad(frog) and Hazel the hedgie!!
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Andrea
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/25 20:34I am still rooting for you and your hedgie and am so happy to hear that your hedgie is starting to keep more food down. You are an awesome hedgie mommy.
Andrea
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vicioushippie
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/26 00:32Lori and Andrea, Thanks so much for the vote of confidence! We are thrilled that Rinn seems to be keeping more down! We'll weigh her in the next day or two if things continue to go well (don't want to do it too soon and get discouraged if she's still losing weight). We can't say it enough that if it were not for all of you, we would have been at a complete loss!! Thanks again to everyone!!!! Beth, Rick and especially Ms. Rinn!
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LORI611
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/03/31 12:02How is Miss Rinn doing??? Time for an update. I hope all is well with her!LORI, SOUTHINGTON, CT Mom of: Chloe(dog), Mr.Toad(frog) and Hazel the hedgie!!
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vicioushippie
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/04/02 22:10TO EVERYONE THAT HAS TAKEN THE TIME TO WRITE, Sorry we haven't updated in so long. But we have good news!!! Ms. Rinn has been keeping her food down! She is no longer on syringe feedings, she has been eating her food softened with water and mixed with the ferretvite all on her own! Last night I added some brown rice to the mixture and she loved it. Around 5 days ago when we weighed her, she was down to 256 grams. As of a couple of hours ago she weighed almost 290 grams!!! I still have some questions: is it alright to feed the ferretvite everyday with every feeding? Also, we stopped with the Boost because we were afraid with the ferretvite we may overdose her with vitamins, any advice on this? She really likes her Boost, but we don't want to overdue it. BUT most of all, we just want to express our deepest gratitude to all of you who took your time to write! We truly are convinced that it was the advice and support from you ALL that has given us more time with Ms. Rinn! So take a minute and pat yourselves on the back because you've done good by us and Rinn!! THANKYOU!!! We realize that we still have a ways to go and things may downfall again, but every extra day we get is a blessing. I can't even express the joy we felt yesterday watching Ms.Rinn skate (we have hardwood floors and she loves sliding around on them) through the living room! We are going to wait to take her to the vet until (if?) she gains more weight. I did speak to her about a week ago and she still thinks we should be trying the AD diet. We've been thinking about it, since she has been keeping her food down, but we are hesitant, because the AD was the first thing she started throwing up. I'm afraid the taste will bring back some kind of bad reaction. (Any advice welcomed). Well it is time for Ms. Rinn's evening skate, thanks so much to all of you again and again!!! Beth, Rick and once again most of all THE ONE, THE ONLY, MS. RINN PINNROSE!
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CThogs
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/04/03 06:48So happy for your good news Keep doing what you are doing if it seems to be working for her. I do keep a can or two of A/D here at all times for the hedgies so it is not a bad idea to try it again. I would offer it in addition to what she has been eating and if she wants it, that is great and if not, no big deal.Ann Connecticut Hedgehogs
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Andrea
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/04/03 08:50That is great news!!! I would just continue feeding your hedgie what has been working up to this point.....since she is eating some things with gusto and keeping food down, those are good signs. As far as overdosing on vitamins if you add the boost, I am totally new at all of this and would defer to the experts. But I know in humans, sometimes illness makes a person less able to absorb vitamins, so they take that into account when dosing supplements and figuring out dietary needs. Having said that, I dont know how these things work in hedgies. Maybe you could add the boost but in small amounts and alternate days?
Spikey and I are rooting for her!
Andrea
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vicioushippie
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/04/05 14:51Hello to everyone, Well Ms. Rinn is eating great, however, when we went to weigh her again she had lost 5 grams. We realize that more likely than not the cancer is spreading and she'll have her good days and bad. But, of course, we want to give her the best quality of life while she is with us. I had read a journal about another hedgie, named Murray, that had cancer and they had mentioned something called IP6 (inositol?) that they were using. They didn't know much about it, but supposedly it is supposed to help with cancer. I am trying to get ahold of Murray's parents to ask them about it, but for some reason when I try to email them it doesn't go through. So, in the mean time, I was wondering if any of you had heard of the IP6 or any other things we could give Ms. Rinn? As always, everyone's input is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Beth, Rick and Ms. Rinn P.S. Rinn has horribly dry skin, I've been putting a humilac spray on her, the vet had given me awhile back, but she is loosing quills caked with dry skin. Anyone have any ideas?
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As for the dry skin, you could add more oily food to her diet (which I don't know if you should do incase maybe she wouldn't eat it?), you could try taking some Olive oil in your hands and just kind of rubbing it over her quills and ears and stomach(that's what these guys told me to do when Tweetle had dry skin) Or you could always give her an Oatmeal bath to help soothe her dry skin.
Good luck!**Mommy of Tweetle the hedgehog!** ~Felicia :]
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CThogs
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Re:Ms. Rinns surgery, refusal to eat HELP! - 2008/04/05 16:46If she is only down 5 grams, do not worry too much. That can be the difference between weighing pre or post poop for one thing. You should see a gradual increase in weight but not necessarily every day.
Ask your vet about the IP6. I've heard of it but never used it.
Our girl lost a patch of quills when she was dealing with her illness and it remained bald for the rest of her life. We tested for infection, etc and came up negative so had to conclude it was the stress of the illness or surgery.Ann Connecticut Hedgehogs
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I would just continue feeding your hedgie what has been working up to this point.....since she is eating some things with gusto and keeping food down, those are good signs. As far as overdosing on vitamins if you add the boost, I am totally new at all of this and would defer to the experts. But I know in humans, sometimes illness makes a person less able to absorb vitamins, so they take that into account when dosing supplements and figuring out dietary needs. Having said that, I dont know how these things work in hedgies. Maybe you could add the boost but in small amounts and alternate days?
) Or you could always give her an Oatmeal bath to help soothe her dry skin.