lee19
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Why Purina? - 2008/01/21 20:27
Hello,
I'm wondering why Purina seems to be a recommended brand of cat food for hedgies... I understand that hedgie specific foods aren't used primarily because they are mostly fillers that provide inadequate nutrition. If one reads the ingredient label for most Purina brands, you'll note that it's mostly fillers...
For example, Purina Kitten Chow (info from online website) lists for the first 10 ingredients: poultry by-product meal, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, soy flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of E), fish meal, wheat flour, brewers dried yeast, phosphoric acid, animal digest  and then it lists the usual string of technical names (like vitamins, preservatives, etc)
Poultry by-product is of course pretty bad...things like necks, feet, intestines, etc ground up and used for pet food. Corn...cheap filler... Animal fat? Animal digest doesn't sound too promising either... 
Guess I'm just confused why so many are using Purina brands and the like? I've seen a couple say that using the higher quality foods seemed to contribute to fat hedgies but I would think using healthy ingredients would just make a healthier hog.. I've seen some people recommend Chicken Soup foods and those have a pretty decent list of ingredients...pure meat sources, better grains like oatmeal and barley, veggies/fruits, etc. Some brands of the same genre include Solid Gold, Wellness, Blue Spa Select, etc. Why not use these brands? I've seen that a lot of members do use some of the better brands...but a great deal also recommend Purina and the like... Even foods that are generally considered top-shelf like Iams are just nasty  Iams Kitten first 5 ingredients are chicken, chicken by-product, corn meal, corn grits, and chicken fat.. Also lists dried beet pulp (filler!)
I am honestly NOT trying to insult anyone's feeding methods, we all love our hedgies and I hope no one takes this the wrong way! Just interested to hear what people have to say about this.
Thanks,
lee19
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Stasi
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/21 20:39
It's a fair question.
Many of us have discovered the hard way that AP hedgies do not do well on very 'rich' foods - they NEED the fillers too. Long story short - there are a couple of breeders here (myself included) who tried feeding our herds the 'good' stuff. The mortality rates in our herds skyrocketed.  The necropsies showed ALL of the deaths caused by fatty liver disease; something rarely seen in hedgehogs that are fed a diet with a number of fillers (and proper exercise (wheel)).
As for Purina itself, first you have to remember that Purina is one of the largest pet food companies around. Therefore, it's more likely to have something that's going to not only fit what you are looking for, but be easy to find no matter where you live too.
Purina kitten is easily digested. Hedgehogs thrive with it as part of their staple diet throughout their lives.
Purina One actually has been shown in a couple of University studies to be appropriate as a diet (or part of one) for AP hedgehogs.
Ok, does that help?
Stasi
Terrapin Hedgehogs
Joppa, MD
www.terrapinhedgehogs.com
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lee19
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/22 09:50
Thanks for the input Stasi! Mind if I ask which diets seemed to contribute to fatty liver? You said feeding some of the "good stuff" seemed to have a negative impact but was that brands like Royal Canin, Iams, Science Diet, Pro Plan etc (generally considered to be "better" higher quality foods)? Simply because when one gets into ingredients and whats actually in the foods, Royal Canin/Iams and others are not very high quality. 
I just ask because I'd prefer to feed better foods that have more natural, wholesome ingredients such as Solid Gold, Wellness, etc... (plus my hedgie baby always picks those pieces of food out first!! ...she apparently likes them better than Purina, Special Kitty, etc) But is it those types of food that breeders have found contributed to fatty liver? Or was it things like Royal Canin... Just trying to figure things out... Want to do what's best for my hedgie. 
lee19
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HamorHollow
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/22 12:13
lee19 wrote:
Thanks for the input Stasi! Mind if I ask which diets seemed to contribute to fatty liver? You said feeding some of the "good stuff" seemed to have a negative impact but was that brands like Royal Canin, Iams, Science Diet, Pro Plan etc (generally considered to be "better" higher quality foods)? Simply because when one gets into ingredients and whats actually in the foods, Royal Canin/Iams and others are not very high quality.
I just ask because I'd prefer to feed better foods that have more natural, wholesome ingredients such as Solid Gold, Wellness, etc... (plus my hedgie baby always picks those pieces of food out first!! ...she apparently likes them better than Purina, Special Kitty, etc) But is it those types of food that breeders have found contributed to fatty liver? Or was it things like Royal Canin... Just trying to figure things out... Want to do what's best for my hedgie.
lee19
Iams and Eukanuba usually get pooped in here, the hedgehogs just don't like them. Pro Plan goes over well. I used to use Royal Canin, but I think it was part of the problem when the hedgies here started getting fat.
A lot of people would rather use the 'more wholesome' foods, but it doesn't seem like our hedgehogs are able to break down those foods properly, leading to them becoming fat, getting fatty liver, and being generally less active. I can't say I completely understand it. You would think these 'more natural' 'top shelf' foods would be healthier for the hedgehogs, but they are just too rich for their systems.
Unfortunately there is no money available to do studies on hedgehogs and why their systems react the way they do. Hedgehogs seem to do really well with the Purina line, so if it works......
That being said, I do use other foods in my mix too.
-K
Kelly Sosik-Hamor
Hamor Hollow Hedgehogs - a New Hampshire breeder, serving Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey and any where else hedgehogs are legal. |
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Stasi
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/22 12:44
In all honesty, I can't recall all the foods I used when making a 'healthier' mix. I know it included Solid Gold (which, until moving here I *did* keep in my mix), Wellness, and...there were two others that I can't think of right off. Basically, it was the foods made out of meat, without fillers, but high proteins, low fats. Now I stress to people to avoid feeding ALL of that type of food, but rather adding the fillers that seem to be more easily digested by our little friends.
My old vet and I posed that it was the fact that the lower end foods, or foods made up of already broken down proteins, are easier for the simple digestive system of the hedgehog. That the higher quality ones made up with whole meats, grains, veggies, etc are harder for their systems to process, leading to their livers/kidneys/etc to burn out much faster.
Stasi
Terrapin Hedgehogs
Joppa, MD
www.terrapinhedgehogs.com
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smhufflepuff
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/22 13:16
Stasi wrote:
Purina One actually has been shown in a couple of University studies to be appropriate as a diet (or part of one) for AP hedgehogs.
Do you happen to have the references for those studies? I'd like to read them 
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pricklesnquills
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/22 14:22
I was wondering the same things you are a while back...here is the link to the thread I started on it: http://www.hedgehogworld.com/component/option,com_joomlaboard/Itemid,63/
func,view/id,12177/catid,17/
Emily
Prickles N' Quills Hedgehogs
Breeding for Excellent Health, Personality & Color
Charlotte, NC
www.pricklesnquills.webs.com
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Stasi
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/22 14:40
smhufflepuff wrote:
Stasi wrote:
Purina One actually has been shown in a couple of University studies to be appropriate as a diet (or part of one) for AP hedgehogs.
Do you happen to have the references for those studies? I'd like to read them
Unfortunately, I don't. I know they were done at University of Colorado, and Florida State U. ( I believe on that one) a number of years ago. I'll see if I can get ahold of the references.
Stasi
Terrapin Hedgehogs
Joppa, MD
www.terrapinhedgehogs.com
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lee19
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/22 15:01
Well it looks from people's comments that a lot feel like real high quality foods (ones that don't use by-products, filler grains, etc) are too "rich" for hedgies... Personally though, that confuses me. Since wild hedgehogs are insectivores/omnivores their wild diet would include insects, worms, snails, small mammals, roots, berries, etc. right? One online source I found said hedgehogs are known to ingest small reptiles, amphibians, and small fish. So I wouldn't think that having a cat food with deboned chicken, chicken meal, fish meal, barley, oatmeal, dried chicory, parsley flakes, thyme, blueberries, cranberries, etc...would be too complex to digest. It really would be harder on the system to digest a diet that was high in corn grits, corn meal, chicken necks/feet, etc.
I do see how getting an excess of rich (meaning healthy, non-filler foods) could make for a fat hog though... That could be compared to a human who eats say a lot of red meats (instead of leaner cuts), even lots of veggies, rice, pasta, beans, breads, etc...a very rich diet of quality foods could make someone obese or unhealthy. On the other hand you also have people who get overweight from junk food...like fast food all the time.  To me, corn and by-product cat foods would be like that... So both ways could make fat hedgies. Though I also agree with a comment someone made that probably having lots of corn and fillers means less nutrients asorbed from food thus that would certainly make slimmer hogs.
However I would think dealing with fat problems, and rich foods should be handled from the percent's angle more than from using fillers, just because it's healthier. Like use lower protein/fat (like lite brands) and of course everyone trys to watch food intake for pudgy hogs and provide exercise...
Just some more thoughts.  I'm enjoying this thread, it's interesting!
lee19
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zorra578
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/22 15:58
I find Quentin will snatch up all the Iams Kitten food in his mix, which makes me mad cuz its the fattiest. We still have kitten food from when he was a little tyke so it's still in the mix. He likes his Purina One Kitten decently, but the newest to the mix, the healthy Blue Buffalo low fat high protein gets snubbed. He will eat his little confetti bowl of food and when I come back to it later it is all the same type of food pellets in there, the healthy ones.  I should really change to a lower-fat adult brand since he will turn 1 years old in Feb. but I even the small bags go a long way and are expensive, and he cruises on his wheel for a couple hours every night and can still roll into a tight ball, though he is plump but normal hedgie plump. My boyfriend just says he's fat because he's so round. I would love to find CSFTCLS but have yet to see it anywhere!
Jessica
Des Plaines, IL
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pricklesnquills
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/22 16:07
lee19 wrote:
Well it looks from people's comments that a lot feel like real high quality foods (ones that don't use by-products, filler grains, etc) are too "rich" for hedgies... Personally though, that confuses me. Since wild hedgehogs are insectivores/omnivores their wild diet would include insects, worms, snails, small mammals, roots, berries, etc. right? One online source I found said hedgehogs are known to ingest small reptiles, amphibians, and small fish. So I wouldn't think that having a cat food with deboned chicken, chicken meal, fish meal, barley, oatmeal, dried chicory, parsley flakes, thyme, blueberries, cranberries, etc...would be too complex to digest. It really would be harder on the system to digest a diet that was high in corn grits, corn meal, chicken necks/feet, etc.
I do see how getting an excess of rich (meaning healthy, non-filler foods) could make for a fat hog though... That could be compared to a human who eats say a lot of red meats (instead of leaner cuts), even lots of veggies, rice, pasta, beans, breads, etc...a very rich diet of quality foods could make someone obese or unhealthy. On the other hand you also have people who get overweight from junk food...like fast food all the time. To me, corn and by-product cat foods would be like that... So both ways could make fat hedgies. Though I also agree with a comment someone made that probably having lots of corn and fillers means less nutrients asorbed from food thus that would certainly make slimmer hogs.
However I would think dealing with fat problems, and rich foods should be handled from the percent's angle more than from using fillers, just because it's healthier. Like use lower protein/fat (like lite brands) and of course everyone trys to watch food intake for pudgy hogs and provide exercise...
Just some more thoughts. I'm enjoying this thread, it's interesting!
lee19
I'm in the same boat as you. I have asked pretty much all the questions you have. But, I still don't get it. These are wonderful people on here but this is one subject I've decided that I must agree to disagree with them on.
Emily
Prickles N' Quills Hedgehogs
Breeding for Excellent Health, Personality & Color
Charlotte, NC
www.pricklesnquills.webs.com
www.remembermethemovie.webs.com |
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jick
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/22 16:19
I know that the mix that was supplied to me from my breeder (Hamor Hollow) contains quite a bit of different foods. Purina is in there but it doesn't seem to be in such a higher percentage then some of the others. I'm sure that feeding your hedgehog soley purina would be un-wise but to feed soley any particular brand seems equally unwise. Providing a mixture of both higher as well as lower quality foods seems to give a better balance. Plus another thing to keep in mind is that some of these breeders have very large "herds" of hedgehogs and have had them for quite a long time. It would obviously be in their best interest, as well as the hedgehogs, to keep them as healthy as possible. That is the kind of hands on info that I don't have since I only have one.
Check out Ham's Blog ! |
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Stasi
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/22 19:31
lee19 wrote:
Well it looks from people's comments that a lot feel like real high quality foods (ones that don't use by-products, filler grains, etc) are too "rich" for hedgies... Personally though, that confuses me. Since wild hedgehogs are insectivores/omnivores their wild diet would include insects, worms, snails, small mammals, roots, berries, etc. right? One online source I found said hedgehogs are known to ingest small reptiles, amphibians, and small fish. So I wouldn't think that having a cat food with deboned chicken, chicken meal, fish meal, barley, oatmeal, dried chicory, parsley flakes, thyme, blueberries, cranberries, etc...would be too complex to digest. It really would be harder on the system to digest a diet that was high in corn grits, corn meal, chicken necks/feet, etc.
I do see how getting an excess of rich (meaning healthy, non-filler foods) could make for a fat hog though... That could be compared to a human who eats say a lot of red meats (instead of leaner cuts), even lots of veggies, rice, pasta, beans, breads, etc...a very rich diet of quality foods could make someone obese or unhealthy. On the other hand you also have people who get overweight from junk food...like fast food all the time. To me, corn and by-product cat foods would be like that... So both ways could make fat hedgies. Though I also agree with a comment someone made that probably having lots of corn and fillers means less nutrients asorbed from food thus that would certainly make slimmer hogs.
However I would think dealing with fat problems, and rich foods should be handled from the percent's angle more than from using fillers, just because it's healthier. Like use lower protein/fat (like lite brands) and of course everyone trys to watch food intake for pudgy hogs and provide exercise...
Just some more thoughts. I'm enjoying this thread, it's interesting!
lee19
I completely agree it makes no sense. Another thing to add to the not making sense - most of the hedgehogs that I lost to FLD were slim n trim, exercised regularly, and didn't exhibit any problems whatsoever.
go figure.
Stasi
Terrapin Hedgehogs
Joppa, MD
www.terrapinhedgehogs.com
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Julie Pierce
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/22 20:12
It is a very complex topic and people do feel very strongly about their mixes and beliefs in what food combination is right. I have been thinking quite a bit about this lately and have been considering the benefits of putting everyone on a whole food diet. I am still researching and thinking how best to take this on, what items to include in the diet mix, how to store it, how much can I make and keep fresh,etc.
The other consideration too is what about when the babies go to new homes? If I have all my hedgies on this whole foods diet, will new owners continue with it (probably not) and how will that switch over to dry cat food affect the babies.
There is certainly a lot to consider..
Julie Pierce
Pierce's Pogs
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jick
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/23 00:07
Julie Pierce wrote:
It is a very complex topic and people do feel very strongly about their mixes and beliefs in what food combination is right. I have been thinking quite a bit about this lately and have been considering the benefits of putting everyone on a whole food diet. I am still researching and thinking how best to take this on, what items to include in the diet mix, how to store it, how much can I make and keep fresh,etc.
I've wondered the same thing since I first started reading about hedgies. I eat a lot of organic foods and I even work at an organic grocery so it would make sense for me. Unfortunately I just don't know enough about that stuff without worrying about damaging Ham's health. I'd love to be able to switch to an all natural blend (cat foods) supplemented by plenty whole foods. Let me know if you how it goes if you do try it out!
Check out Ham's Blog ! |
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omelette
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/23 19:34
i've thought a lot about this topic. everything from what are the best brands to what ingredients to include into a mix. i've also thought about a whole food diet as well. i 've been wanting to switch my dogs and cats over to a whole food diet, so why not my hedgie? but for every question i've asked it seems like i've hit a brick wall. it seems like everyone has very different answers and a lot tend to contradict one another. right now i'm feeding omelette nutro. which i know isn't all that great, but it's one of the better ones. i pay close attention to the %'s as well as the ingredients, just like i do for my cats and dogs. but if a lower quality diet is better for hedgies because they need fillers, then wouldn't a mix of both a lower quality food with a high quality work just as well? wouldn't it give them the protein they need but also give them the fillers? i have to say that i am quite confused when it comes to hedgehog nutrition. there simply isn't enough information out there to support any one kind of diet. so i must rely on breeders who obviously have had a lot of experience feeding hedgehogs.
Lisa
My Heart Belongs to:
Teddy, Sugar, Sapphie, Fudge, Archie, Chuckie - The Yorkies
Wendy (Siamese Mix), Echo (Tabby) - Cats
Omelette - Hedgehog
Basil - Guinea Pig
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lee19
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/24 00:09
Whole food diet sounds interesting Julie... Mind sharing your thoughts just a little? What exactly do you mean by whole foods? Do you mean fresh, (non-kibble, cat) foods?? i.e. chicken, berries, whatnot, etc? Not sure what your phrasing meant..
OT but I really like organic/healthy food too, in pet foods as well! I give my dog (Collie) home-cooked meals plus some Bravo (raw) and it SO helped him out with his years-long bad skin problems and digestive upsets.. Skin problems gone! He's much healthier now (almost 8yrs!) then when he was getting kibble of any brand (and I did try some natural, pure ingredients ones).
lee19
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Julie Pierce
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/25 11:28
I have a couple of my darling girls that are nutritional nightmares. Lilly has always been very skinny and has food issues. Daisy too for that matter. So i have tried just about everything for these two except going to whole diet. At this point, I dont feel like I have anything to lose and I am hopeful a whole foods diet might benefit them.
My plan for these 2 girls is to go a diet which is as close to what they would eat in the wild as possible with no preservatives or additives. I am planning on a mixture of chicken, egg, meal worms, grasshoppers, crickets, wax worms, berries.
I am going to try some products from this site:
http://www.exclusivelyhedgehogs.com/hedgehog_%20foods.htm
-freeze dried chicken
-bugs
My thoughts are if I can mix together these dry ingredients they can be stored in the fridge and can be moistened at meal time with a little bit of puppy formula.
Anyways, I will let you know how it goes. If my girls seem to benefit from it, I will be happy to share the final "recipe"
Julie Pierce
Pierce's Pogs
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Julie Pierce
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/29 09:08
Hi all
Well I received the freeze dried chicken, crickets and wax worms from exclusively hedgehogs yesterday. I put them in the food processor with some fresh mealworms (I felt awful chopping them up.... ) and added in a little Ferretvite. I gave everyone a little bit in their snack dishes and wow did they go crazy for it.
Right now I still have their kibble in their "food bowl" but I think I will continue to supplement with the whole foods diet. I am going to try switching 2 of my pet hedgehogs completely over to the whole foods diet by slowly decreasing the kibble in their diet and increasing the whole foods. Obviously its gonna take a long time before I can make any real statement on how/if it has benefitted them.
For now all I can say is that everyone came charging out of their igloos and ate every last bit of it..even my picky eaters..hahahh
Julie Pierce
Pierce's Pogs
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jick
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/29 10:00
I would imagine it gave off a "special" smell that most hedgehogs just cannot deny! 
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starnightstarsky2000
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/29 10:41
LOL talking about hedgie's racing out of their houses for food. We were having lamb the other night and my pregnant girls came waddling out of their nest boxes with noses high in the air. So I cut up a bite size lamb and then cut it up like I did when my son was a toddler and offered it to them and WOW did they eat it up. So lamb is another one they really like at least here.
Dani Marshall Kansas
Lots Of Love Exotic Small Animal Kennel
"From Our Heart To Yours"
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Kane123
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/29 11:56
Oh, I never heard about Purina before... It doesn't exist in my country....but I really have to ask ; is garlic good for hedgehog??
I saw "Smart Heart" (cat food brand) 2 months ago , and I think it might help my hedgehog about heart conditions. In fact, I did think about heart rate for hedgehog, but I think hedgehog is quite like the one who getting over excite all the time (as usual). So garlic's results may not considerably constrained by hedgehog's heart rate. Moreover, this brand has 30% protein and just 8% fat.
PS1 : my country is so warm, they don't need such a high fat like 20% for sure!
I didn't use it yet, but should I try it? Actually I found that garlic may help hedgehogs about sexed too (- -")
Umm.... just think about it... - -"
More to add, I thought that all of cat food around the world has nothing perfect but we can find the best one for our hedgehog.
Meal worms for a hedgehog, in my idea, it's like a big cup of beer. They love it like addicted to it, but they're getting fatter, fattest, fattester and fattesttest. Should we spoil them?? why?,why not?
Oh, did you hear about Pedigree? That is BEST brand that I'd NOT RECOMMEND!!! It cause my hedgehog die, the most I love - the first I have.
Click!!! >>> http://kane123.picturepush.com/
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bigdaddyhedg
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Re:Why Purina? - 2008/01/29 13:18
I always assumed it was more about the protein to fats ratio that mattered.
Gavin i have only had hedgehogs for a few months I was told that they need a high protein low fat diet.
I go threw all the cat food in the store I work at and look at the percentage of protein to the percentage of fat.
I don't pay much mined to brands
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