Kane123
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The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in THA - 2008/01/18 22:20
The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in Thailand
Many one didn't know me much. Actually, I'm keeping hedgehogs for 2-3 years ,and many one known as "Kane123" on the Thai webboards. The reason why I started posing here because I just runaway from heated argument on the boards. Many Thai breeder want to reduce their cost, so they can get more profit from selling their animals. Personally, reduce cost mean reduce hedgehog life quality.
I think I feel so good that many of you are real hedgehog lover - me too. In Thailand, I can say that it's animal abuses country, I hate to say this but it's true. This things cause from some merchants "only" but affect to all of the country. I can't accept those violence things, I hate it so I fight for it since I own my hedgehogs. By the way, there're many of hedgehog lover in Thailand who really really love their hedgehogs. So I don't blame Thai, but I blame some of Thai Breeder
What? Violence??? How???
The idea to reduce cost quite like black market.
Ex1. First mom - Second mom
First mom just have babies on December 1, Second mom have it on December 2 (or 3,4,5). The breeder take all of babies from first mom ,and give it to second mom. The they try to breed first mom again after that for only 2 weeks (You know, after weaning time - hedgehogs must rest for 2 months to reproduce again....but this...no weaning time + 2 weeks?!).
So? Why it's bad?
Some babies was abandoned (died), and first mom is going to have a shorter life. Some of those first mom live only for 1 year but give more than 20 babies. Answer that yourselves, is it bad?
Ex2. More hedgehogs - More profit
Can you handle 263 hedgehogs in a small room? and may be some snakes, spiders and turtles? No, I guess. But not for some guy in my country. They said that it's fine, hedgehogs can live in a small place. I said no! so heated argument begun.
How small? - You guy have to think about how small hedgehog boxes are. In fact, hedgehog NEED at least 30*60*20 inches box.
More hedgehogs = more profit = more dead!!
They said that hedgehog can live in a small room, they can handle all of them. How??
When you own hedgehog, it's good idea to put lot of woody inside the cage. You can see how much is this?
Enough for today. There're more thing to say... but enough...
Sugar Glider
See it yourselves, will you kill your hedgehogs, if no - Don't do like this. It's a big SIN !!!
Post edited by: Kane123, at: 2008/01/18 22:23
Post edited by: Kane123, at: 2008/01/18 22:28
Post edited by: Kane123, at: 2008/01/18 22:29
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Kane123
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/01/18 22:31
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saabgirl9000
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/01/18 22:45
Wow, that is so sad  . I'm glad that you are smart, and realize that what is happening is wrong.
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dzmeadows
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/01/19 10:52
Ugh
I can see why you wouldn't want to do it like those breeders do.
Sounds like there is a major need for education and GOOD breeders in your country.
Maybe you would want to help us translate some of our articles into Thai? *evil grin* A good step for hedgehogworld really to become more global!
Becca
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Julie Pierce
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/01/19 11:19
Wow that is really an eye opener thank you for sharing!
Julie Pierce
Pierce's Pogs
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Kane123
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/01/19 12:33
dzmeadows wrote:
Ugh
I can see why you wouldn't want to do it like those breeders do.
Sounds like there is a major need for education and GOOD breeders in your country.
Maybe you would want to help us translate some of our articles into Thai? *evil grin* A good step for hedgehogworld really to become more global!
Becca
I love to do it Becca
How can I say, actually I translate it already....but.... there're lot of those merchants. I did some research about everything like... WHS, Cancer, Overweight, temperature, all of common diseases. But the major things quite simple
e.g. when should we separate babies from mom, how to take care your hedgehogs, etc.
Only me alone can't fight those people ya know? I strongly believe that many of Thais who love hedgehogs like you + my friends -> wanted to change that bad things ,but how can you stop them? I gave them the right information for 2 years,but it's not working.
Another major thing that hedgehog lover in Thailand must consider is "PRICE". then you might say "What??" or "Price?"
I'll explain more for "Price" - the lowest price is the best thing for consumers. low price can be get more profit than other shops, that's always true in Thailand. If you go to the biggest market in the world "Jatujak" or "JJ", you will see more than 20 shops that selling hedgehogs in the same place. So, many shops = many prices, lowest conquer all!!.
umm... where are we?
calculate this (it's may easy for you to think from Baht to Dollar)
For GOOD breeder (Global standard) - 1 hedgehogs must use at least... per month
Cat food = 50 Baht - normal quality
Those woody thing = 4kg/250 Baht
So on, = 100 Baht - vitamin, oil (when they shop thing for their pet)
All = 400 Baht
For merchant, They will pay just 300 baht for 1 hedgehog and sell it for 400 Baht
Try to do some math here...
Jan 1,2008 : GOOD Breeder put the male and female together
Feb 5,2008 : The GOOD breeder get just 3 babies
April 1,2008 : Weaning time - separate hedgehogs (selling time)
Will the GOOD breeder get profit?
Answer, no ---> So, be the bad breeder is fine then? Ahh... I didn't fight only the merchants + breeders ,but I fought with Demand & Supply "Invisible Hand" then?
Imagine this, 400 baht = appx 13$ .... if this thing appear in your country, will consumer love it? 12-13$ for 1 hedgehog.... ahhh
PS. I spend around 2500 baht for 4 hedgehogs.... So if I'm going to be the breeder I must sell 1 hedgehog around 1200 baht... who will buy it?
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dzmeadows
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/01/19 13:03
Profit??? What's profit????
Even in the US, we have mill breeders who breed massive scale, probably about the same situation as you are dealing with there. They sell baby hedgehogs at 4 -5 weeks old (way below good weaning age) for $25-40 to pet stores.
Then, there are the "hobby" breeders. They raise much smaller quantities than the mass breeders, but do it with love and compassion for the animals they raise. They feed and care for their hedgehogs in the manner that the hedgehogs health and happiness is the main priority above cost. They rarely make a lot of profit, but the long term benefits are great. Happy healthy babies, happy healthy breeding adults, happy customers who will come back for more hedgehogs.
It sounds like Thailand has plenty of the large scale breeders, and not near enough of the hobby type breeders. The babies from hobby breeders in the US do cost more than the mill babies, but educated customers who have done their research on hedgehogs are going to be more likely to spend a little extra to get a good baby than go to a pet store and get one that is too young and too sick to have a good long life.
Therefore, focus on educating the owners, teaching them what a hedgehog can and should be, and you give the hobby breeders a fighting chance over the large wholesale breeders.
As far as the translating, we would love to have the articles that we have on hedgehog world posted in other languages. I don't expect the entire site translated over night, but every little bit helps! Just pick an article or two, translate them, and email them my way. I will figure out the logistics of posting them.  Just make sure you include information on the article that you are translating so I can know where to put it!
Becca
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Kane123
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/01/19 19:02
That's why I love you Becca. You're really get what I mean. Thank god for sending you!!! I promise, I'll do it.
"Therefore, focus on educating the owners, teaching them what a hedgehog can and should be, and you give the hobby breeders a fighting chance over the large wholesale breeders."
I couldn't agree more!
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dzmeadows
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/01/20 09:28
Awww, somebody loves me!!!! *grin*
It has long been a dream here at hhw to go truly worldwide with multiple language translations. It would be completely fabulous to have EVERY article and EVERY FAQ on the site translated into multiple languages, but since our staff isn't very multilingual (ok, some of us have troubles speaking ENGLISH properly), it has been difficult.
I greatly appreciate your willingness to help our site become translated into Thai, and your dedication to educating your fellow countrymen. It will help our site reach out to a group of hedgehog owners that it sounds like doesn't have a whole lot of information available for them.
Any of you other members who are multilingual, I am willing to work with more than one translator at a time to get articles up in more than one language!
According to our statistics program (which allows me to look at visitor stats in MANY different formats) we had visitors from 52 different countries so far this MONTH. While I hope that many of these visitors are able to read English, I am sure that some of them are not. And think of all of the visitors that we could help if we had world translated into their languages!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok, off my soap box.
Becca
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pricklesnquills
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/01/22 14:37
That would be amazing to have HW in other languages!! 
Emily
Prickles N' Quills Hedgehogs
Breeding for Excellent Health, Personality & Color
Charlotte, NC
www.pricklesnquills.webs.com
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allen18
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/04/17 21:00
oh my god. An unpleasant sight. Im from the Philippines but this kind of scale in breeding hedgehog is not present here. Most of the owners just keep them and enjoy the beauty of these creatures. Breeding occur but they gave utmost care for the mother and babies.
hi Kane thanks for the warm welcome on the off topic board. Can you help my cousin get some hedgies there in Thailand? He is currently working there.
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Kane123
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/04/18 03:07
why not? call me at 087 303 2475
and... where do he live? I live in ChiangMai but I can ask my friends all around Thailand for him then?.
MSN : general_death@hotmail.com
Email : Kane.chaisatien@gmail.com
EDITED : Don't buy any animal at JJ market in Bangkok. trust me ; cats, dogs, birds including fishes and hedgehogs are from no standard breeders. - seller can trick you to buy a different kind of fish since it's look like the same one (high price).
Post edited by: Kane123, at: 2008/04/18 03:17
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Aaria
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/04/18 14:01
the phrase that comes to my mind is penny wise, dollar foolish. If you save for example $100 dollars buying an unhealthy hedgehog but then spend twice as much on large vet bills and then loose your pet 2 years early, it cost you more in the long run. It would be really interesting to do a controlled experiment and buy a mill hedgie and a hobby hedgie and raise them exactly the same and compare cost in a lifetime. I bet that would show that you (the pet owner) are actually losing money buy buying a cheaper pet.
Becky
Mother of Peanut the hedgehog |
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HappyHedgie8
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/04/18 18:34
That is so sad
**Mommy of Tweetle the hedgehog!**
~Felicia :] |
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Kane123
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/04/18 23:12
Aaria wrote:
the phrase that comes to my mind is penny wise, dollar foolish. If you save for example $100 dollars buying an unhealthy hedgehog but then spend twice as much on large vet bills and then loose your pet 2 years early, it cost you more in the long run. It would be really interesting to do a controlled experiment and buy a mill hedgie and a hobby hedgie and raise them exactly the same and compare cost in a lifetime. I bet that would show that you (the pet owner) are actually losing money buy buying a cheaper pet.
Yes, like what you said, so not many people gonna heal it. let it die, then buy another. like WHS, can't cure so let it be. that's what people who bought a cheap animal think about it. "Care about life" should shoot it into their heads.
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Andrea
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/04/19 14:18
Thank you so much for sharing this with us Kane123 and thank you for having integrity and ethics; your hedgies thank you, too.
I think education is key and I like Becca's idea. In addition, I dont know if some international animal rights organization(s) could be informed of the hedgie breeding mills and abuse that is going on. I know there are groups in the USA that have an international focus. We could start a grass roots education campaign to alert people to what is happening to the hedgies in Thailand. Maybe at some of the hedgehog/animal conventions that many breeders attend, there could be brochures alerting people to what is going on in Thailand and maybe we could ask different websites that focus on hedgehogs to have a special link to a page that outlines the plight of the Thai hedgehogs. Are the hedgehogs shipped internationally or are they kept in the country?
I know that not all owners or breeders in Thailand are abusive. Many probably dont even know that there is a problem with this.
Off topic: my husband lived in Thailand for a few years as a youth and still speaks the Thai language. Whenever we go out to a Thai restaurant or to any Thai festival (I live in a very multi-cultural area near Washington DC) he will speak Thai. We are hoping to go soon for a vacation. I would love to see the country.
Andrea
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Kane123
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/04/19 15:02
Oh, don't forget to visit me. 
Umm... what you said seem to be right thing to do in USA, but if I do that in Thailand, I think I might have to sleep in the ICU bed for a couple of months. "brochures" is a really really good idea, but really scared me too. Moreover, no one support it. Ask for Thai government? ahh... wait for my whole life until I'm the PM of Thailand then the paper will be signed. Now we have no constitution yet since the damn coup, we have the faked one
I know that you know what's my sad feeling about it.
For the website, Thai people always think that the older guys should be respected no matter what they do, they're right. They keep hedgehog before me so they're right. Which I could say.....? Well the one I stole his photos live in every hedgehog website, and.... he do good thing in front of us, but what if not in front of us?
it's a really good that we have the word to warn on website like..."Stop too small hedgehog now!" but .... trust me, I live more than 10 years in Thailand, on one gonna care it. like in some place there're sign "Not turn right" "Not double parked" etc, but...just who care?
All I need now is to find the way to stop this thing "effectiveness" and I think the most effective is a group of friends. Can you speak Thai? 
Yes I have friends, we can help a lot hedgehog since we started our group. But 100 hedgehogs is not touch 1% of all of the hedgehogs in Thailand.
Are the hedgehogs shipped internationally or are they kept in the country?
Both, since it have to pass a lab, we can't be sured that there're quality labs to test the hedgehogs. alright we passed for disease, but no machine or technology can measure the real qualities of a hedgehog. So? Thai hedgehog can be around the world which some are not in good conditions.
I said something about WHS. If you see it, it normally occurred most when it was in the age of 2. see?
blah blah blah, I died... 
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Andrea
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/04/19 17:17
You are right....there are cultural issues needing to be attended to, and although I made suggestions about brochures, grassroots groups etc, I would never want to implement anything that might compromise your safety or security! It really seems to be a dilemma, though. In terms of how to help, since there are bigger issues involved in terms of politics, culture etc. Maybe the education can focus on the consumer side i.e. "thinking of adopting a hedige--read this" in terms of buying from smaller breeders.
Hmmmm.....maybe we can all brain-storm about strategies?
If we ever came to Thailand (or should I say 'when') I would let you know.
andrea
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allen18
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/04/23 23:29
Kane123 wrote:
why not? call me at 087 303 2475
and... where do he live? I live in ChiangMai but I can ask my friends all around Thailand for him then?.
MSN : general_death@hotmail.com
Email : Kane.chaisatien@gmail.com
EDITED : Don't buy any animal at JJ market in Bangkok. trust me ; cats, dogs, birds including fishes and hedgehogs are from no standard breeders. - seller can trick you to buy a different kind of fish since it's look like the same one (high price).<br><br>Post edited by: Kane123, at: 2008/04/18 03:17
i will just ask my cousin to get from you. but can you ship it here in the Philippines? i emailed you.
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Kane123
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/04/24 00:40
ship it to Philippine? I guess I can, but I have to check the CNX cargo (Chiang Mai Airport) then ask for what I have to do for this.
and... I didn't see any email, did you send it to Kane.chaisatien@gmail.com????
please don't send it to genereal_death@hotmail.com because I've never use it and now have more than 20,000 unread mails.
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allen18
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/04/24 03:33
yeah I've sent the email on Kane.chaisatien@gmail.com
please let me know if you could ship. check back on this thread from time to time for your answer. thanks Kane
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Kane123
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Re:The reason why I don't want to be a breeder in - 2008/04/24 10:11
ahhh...no email from you
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